A blog by Silas Barta
With todays network number of 3.579 Thashes/s (http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/) and your published number of 1.3 Ghashes/s your rig should represent about 0.0363% of the network. At 50 BTC/block and about $7 per BTC this works out to about $18.30 per day. Is this correct? I ask because I am considering buying a rig myself.
Thanks for the comment, Burt.First thing: over the initial 24 hours that I was running this rig, pooling with deepbit.net (which takes a 3% cut), I got ~5.5 BTC, or $38.50. The parts for the rig cost me ~$2800 (although I've only now started to run it at full capacity -- previously I could only run two of those cards, earning about $650 at low capacity).The network capacity of 3.6 Thash/s doesn't sound right. One way to calculate network capacity is to find some big computer on it and find its hashrate, then multiply that by the ratio of its average block-finding time.For deepbit.net, it does 1.1 Thash/sec and solves a block every 15.5 min on average, whic means it has about 2/3 of the network -- but that's just a rough estimate, I guess.Anywayhe key parts for this system are:4x Radeon HD 5870 GPU4x VID-AR587T2 GPU waterblock1x Coolermaster HAF X Chassis1x Antec HCP-1200 ATX PSU1x MSI 890FXA-GD70 Motherboard1x Swiftech H20-320 EDGE liquid cooling kit (comes with tubing, 4 barbs, and clamps)1x 1/2 inch elbow barb to make that connection at the bottom workALOTx your elbow greaseThen just add a cheap solid-state HD and CPU.I'll leave it up to you to decide if it's worth the expense and risk.
Check out the latest numbers:Network: 6.996 Thashs/s !!Current difficulty: 434,883Next difficulty in 2010 blocks: 1,102,949 !!Also the largest growth was in the "other" category (not any one coop). In fact deepbit is now less than 25% and could be as low a 20%!Sources: http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ and http://bitcoinwatch.com/Wild, check out this chart: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
Neat, thanks for the info!
I must appologize for my previous post. It turns out that right after a rise in difficulty all of the estimates for the next difficulty, the total network hash rate, the distribution of productivity, etc. are just wrong. It turns out you have to wait about 24 hours for all the averaging mechanisms to calm down before you get accurate numbers. So if you recheck the URLs I gave you in my previous post you will find that things have calmed down at the numbers are not as dire as I thought.
Could you just use the standard fan-cooled HD 5870s? Or wouldnt they fit onto the mainboard? Or get too hot?Thanks
They get way too hot with just aircooling, which is why I set up liquid cooling. I could only have two running with aircooling, and the hottest one would get close to 90 C (without overclocking), which is really pushing it. With the liquid cooling system I have, I can run all four GPUs overclocked and the hottest one gets to 60-70 C.So, I learned not to do aircooling for 4 5870s the hard way...
@Silas - why do the graphic cards look different than original 5870's?Like this one:http://hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1383/AMD-ATI-Radeon-HD-5870-Card.jpg
@Anonymous: Most of what (by mass) makes up a graphics card (as it is out-of-the-box) is the heat sink attached to it. In the picture you linked, that includes the red circle thing and the blank casing.To switch to water-cooling, you have to remove this OEM heat sink and attach your own waterblock, the latter of which which is much smaller and doesn't cover the full circuit board. And that's what I did here in the setup.In the process of making this, I took a bunch of pictures, some of which show a modded card next to an out-of-the-box one, and I may upload those sometime.Hope that makes sense.
Hey thanks for all the info. So how many coins are you mining in a 24hr period currently? Great looking rig.
I'm going to remain a bit coy about that number so people don't know whose wallet file to go after ... ;-)
Fair enough. Okay, but you are saying, it is clearly worth the investment for you?
At this point, it's definitely worth the investment. If I sold all my bitcoins (even after the recent fall to 24), it would more than cover the cost of my equipment, plus my labor at my current wage rate (in my day job), plus a decent profit -- and it's still generating.I always feared that the difficulty would go up and slow down my coin generation rate. And it did. But the gain in value of bitcoins has more than compensated for this, so, in dollar terms, the daily yield has been pretty constant.
Hey man, I'm about to order some components for my own rig, and am in love with the 4 card mo-bo with liquid cooling. :) I was wondering if an 850 watt power supply will be enough tp power 4 5850's or if the 1200 is really what I need?
Hi Kevin. First, I'm not sure how profitable it's going to be now; at 1.6 GHash/sec, I'm only getting ~1 BTC/day. (It would have gotten ~25/day if I had that much computing power when I was planning this...) You'll have to bank on further runups in BTC value.As for the PSU question, I would be hesitant about using that much. That card uses ~188 Watts, which leaves only about 100 W for the hard drive, CPU, and cooling system. The overclocking forums should be more helpful.
Thanks for the quick reply. :) Is the reason its less profitable because of the increased difficulty in breaking blocks?Also, I ran the numbers and found that at the current difficulty, with a $2500 investment, it would pay itself off in about 5 months, which if it continued at a stead rate, would be an almost 55% annual return on investment, which is better than any other investment I could throw capital into right now. Where do you think the value of bitcoins is going? If they go back up to $30 a coin, it would pay itself off in about half the time.
@Kevin, yes, I was basing my estimate on the increasing difficulty factor. But you're right, I'm also holding this to a higher standard than other investments. Still, there's a lot of risk involved. If a 55% yearly ROR is sufficient for you on this kind of thing, go for it. Just keep in mind that the revenues will be anything but steady.As for the price, Bitcoin is still in its nascent stage, with big swings either way. I remember back in April, my friends and I did think it was worth it to buy at $1/BTC! Fortunately, the daily value produced has been steady: for a while, the increase in difficult factor was matched by the increase in BTC price.
Sorry, that should say my friends and I didn't think it was worth it to buy at $1.
Thanks again Silas for your timely response and good information. Your absolutely right in that there's a risk in virtually any investment. That being said, it seems as if the only way it would be a bad idea is if the cost of equipment, maintenance, and electricity ever exceeded the value of bitcoins recieved from said hardware.If it ever became unprofitable to mine, do you believe that would that cause the whole system to collapse?
@Kevin: Glad to help!That being said, it seems as if the only way it would be a bad idea is if the cost of equipment, maintenance, and electricity ever exceeded the value of bitcoins recieved from said hardware.Yes, but those are big "ifs". Just be aware of the risk of a) sigificant decline in Bitcoin value, or b) significant increase in difficutly factor not offset (as it was for a while) by an increase in Bitcoin value.If it ever became unprofitable to mine, do you believe that would that cause the whole system to collapse?The way the protocol is designed, it can't become unprofitable for _everyone_ to mine. The difficutly factor is adjusted so that coins are created at a predictable rate, and if a large number of miners ever leave the system, the difficutly will adjust downward until a new equilibrium level of mining is reached. This is done automatically, in a way not requiring anyone's judgment or permitting arbitrary decisions.I explain the details of it in an as-of-yet unappreciated comment on Bob's blog.
Wow, that is certainly amazing, and at the same time incredibly complicated. Yesterday I learned about the recent spike and crash in bitcoins more fully, opening my eyes to the instability of the market. What do you plan to do with your bitcoins? Hold them or sell them off to avoid losing everything? I also learned that Mt. Gox was hacked and they acquired everyone's username and password, which is incredibly troubling. What's to stop those hackers from doing it again?And i'm terribly sorry if I'm wasting your time with these questions but I have one more big one me and my friend though of last night, what happens when there's no more bitcoins to mine?
Keep in mind, the crash to ~$0 was local to one exchange and due to a hacker. The price on other exchanges at the time was unaffected.And in any case, the exchange Mt. Gox, is just one of many users of Bitcoin, as I tried to make clear in a more recent post, so you have to be careful not to equate the two, but at the same time, do be careful about which exchange you use. And, all things considered, Mt. Gox handled it well, locking it down and minimizing the damage.Hopefully, they've learned from the attack and have sealed the holes (in this case, it was an auditor being careless with the access they were granted). If their handling of future breaches is any better, it doesn't seem like anything to worry about: the withdrawl limits allow them to quickly contain any damage, as they did on this one.As for what I'm doing with my BTC, mainly holding on, since I think its network effects have yet to be fully appreciated and priced in.
I have one more big one me and my friend though of last night, what happens when there's no more bitcoins to mine?Keep in mind, miners who solve a block don't just get the 50 BTC (or whatever); they also get any transaction fees offered by users, which are optional but increase the speed with which your exchange is incorporated into the database. So when the scheduled "minting" of new bitcoins ends, miners will still get to keep these transaction fees, which, by that point, will probably have already exceeded the diminishing block reward (remember, it halves every few years so near the end of the minting phase, it will be below 1 BTC/block).
You certainly seem to be incredibly informed and insightful about how this whole thing works, it's incredibly complicated to say the least. I'll let you know how it goes for us, your advice has been indispensable thus far :)
Is there any particular reason you went with the 5870's instead of the 5830's? I looked a lot into pricing on the two cards and decided to go with the 5830's because I guess they get about 319mh/s and cost about $137 a piece, making them 2.33mh/s/$ the lowest I could find the 5870's for was $275, running at 445mh/s they only come out to 1.618mh/s/$. However, I did find it interesting that last figure came out to be the golden mean somehow :) (1.618)
Glad I can help.Interesting stuff on the calcualtions. The reason I went with 5870s was based on what the hardware comparison page on the bitcoin wiki showed circa February of this year. I wanted a high absolute hashing rate, but also high ROR. The highest total hashing rates came from 5970s and 5870s; the latter were half the price and more than half as fast. Also, 5970s were rapidly becoming scarce, and indeed the hordes of miners buying them led to the first ever price *increase* of a mining card that I've seen, so the comparison became even more favorable toward the 5870.I didn't look at the others you mention very closely, probably because they weren't on the list at that time.
Hello again, just noticing that bitcoin prices were in freefall, penny for your thoughts on the matter?
I noticed the same thing, but figured it would be temporary. ANd not it looks like it's pulled back up around $15.
How do you manage power consumption, max on a wall outlet is 1440W, what should i do if i where to get a 4000W mining Rig?
Get a separate room or warehouse for it. No joke: if you're going to go that far, you need to anyway. There are videos ong youtube of people doing just that.
Hey man, for thee water cooling, could you kindly direct me to website where you ordered that 1x 1/2 inch elbow barb? Was it Koolance.com?
Hey, sorry I haven't followed up in the comments. I got the elbow barb here.
Okay cool,Do the barbs that come in the swiftech kit function as nozzels for the waterblocks on your graphics cards?Also I maybe have ordered the wrong thing, this is what I ordered for the elbow joint. https://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=562I can simply cancel and reorder the correct one if that is the case.Thanks a lot, again, your help has been critical.-Kevin Carnage
The barbs that come with the swiftech kit have one male end that screws into the threaded holes on the waterblock (or radiator), and one end that you attach the tubing to (the latter of which is what makes it a barb).The part you linked to is just an elbow, which screws into something (the radiator or waterblock) on one side, and has something (a barb) screwed into it on the other side. For that part to connect to a tube, you would have to screw a barb into the female end.The part I linked to is a combined elbow/barb so that you don't have to do the last step of screwing a barb into the elbow -- it's already built-in.The swiftech kit comes with 4 barbs, two of which are intended for a free CPU waterblock that comes with the kit, but works for the GPU waterblocks just the same. If you, like me, won't be putting a waterblock on your CPU, you can just salvage them for your radiator/waterblock connections, so you'll have all you need.Since you have four barbs in the kit, the elbow you linked is all you need, since you can screw one of them into the elbow. The only reason I got a combined elbow/barb is to be extra safe and avoid having one extra connection (between the elbow and its barb).Does that make sense?
Btw, something's screwy about that link you gave: the picture on the right doesn't seem to be a representation of the product. If you look at "more pics", you only see the left picture -- and the same thing happens if you click the right picture!
Things are definitely starting to come into focus more and more. Your explanation about the water cooling system was incredibly helpful. To avoid ordering another part, and canceling the previous order, I'll just try screwing the barb into the elbow and the elbow into the waterblock? That should work right?Also Your right, the pictures on that page are messed up. That is a little bit weird, someone messed up.. lol
Yes, that elbow you linked will work. It has a male end that screws into the GPU block, and a female end that the barb screws into.One thing I forgot to include in the parts list: connectors for between the blocks. Basically, to avoid having to run extra tubing between each block, you can get special connectors that directly connect one block to another. (As a bonus, they stiffen the overall structure, and keep the cards from bending down due to the weight of the waterblocks.)You will need one for each connection between blocks. Since my cards were as close together as the motherboard allowed (1-slot spacing), I used these. (In my case, with four cards, I needed three of them.)If there's more space between your cards, you would need to get a 2- or 3-slot connector.Btw, setting up the hardware is only half the battle ... there's also the software, but you can find lots of tutorials on the bitcoin forums.
Awesome man, and these connectors will work for pretty much any waterblock? these in particular..http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=2021You seem to have all the answers man, I can't imagine how long it took to figure all this out for yourself. As for the software, lol, It it pretty crazy, we're just crossing that bridge when we come to it for now..
Yikes, you're going for the big leagues, aren't you?In any case, most liquid cooling connections use "G 1/4 BSP" (British Standard Piping, not compatible with what you can get a local US stores), and the part you linked is no exception, so it will work.It was definitely a learning experience for me getting it to work, I'm glad I can pass on what I learned.
Hello again,How's your mining operation going? What kind of results are you getting now with the increasing difficulty? I have run into a slight problem, it seems the Koolance VID-AR697 waterblocks I ordered do not fit the XFX Radeon 6950 graphics cards quite right. In the instructions provided it looks as if the pieces on the card that are in the way had been removed from the card in the photo but I don't want to just start pulling pieces off the board.Or, is there anywhere else that might sell waterblocks specifically for the XFX Radeon 6950's?
Sorry to hear about that. I had the same problem when I was putting my machine together -- the first waterblocks I bought didn't fit the card so I had to return them and buy a more expensive kind. I hope you only opened one.I forgot to add that you should check with the site if they think the block will be compatible with your specific card. Usually, that means take off the heatsink any any easily removable parts, leaving the printed circuit board (PCB), take a picture of that, and send it to the site to verify that a given waterblock will worth with your card.Also, check the site's forums or overclocking forums for what specific waterblocks work with that card.As for my progress, I haven't actually been running it very much recently for various reasons (mainly because of summer cooling costs).
Okay thanks again man, good luck trying to beat the heat.
Hello again, hope you have been doing well. Upon running into uncertainty about the watercooling kit I got from swiftech, I posted on Tom's Hardware asking for advice and was recommended that I get more radiators for the cooling system. How were you able to get by with only one radiator? Or do you actually have more than one radiator and it's not apparent in the picture?
Hey, sorry, only just saw your comment (need to set up something so I get notices). The one I got was sufficient for me (it's the one with three fans), but you may have to adjust a few things to get it right. Make a note of which direction each fan points.For example, in my setup, the radiator fans draw ambient air from above the rig, and push the (warmed) air _into_ the case, which is, of course, less than ideal -- because the hot air near the GPUs makes it a little harder to reject heat (but not of course a deal-breaker because the liquid sucks out heat much faster than the surrounding air).To make up for this, I have the case side fan (not shown) flipped around so that it brings more ambient air into he box. The rear fan is then hard at work sucking out all the box heat.There are alternate ways to do this of course: you could flip the radiator around so that it uses the hot case air to cool down the fluid in the radiator and thus cool down the inside (I would have done this but it would have bade the tubing more complicated). Or, you can use the optional mounting kit to suspend the radiator vertically just a few inches behind the case so that it both draws air from, and expels air to, a region not inside the case.What exactly is going wrong? Is the system working but cooling the GPUs as much as you wanted? Mine go up to ~75 C sometimes even with the liquid cooling.
Everything else is good to go, I was only worried about whether the extra rad would be needed because of the comments I got from the people on Tom's. I'm probably getting another 3x120mm fan rad in order to keep these puppies nice and cool. They are beast, and if I plan to get maximum performance out of them I want to do this right. May have to mount the extra rad on the outside like your said but I think it'll work. I'll let you know how it goes when everything is in order. Thanks again.
Glad to hear it's going well. Can you post a link to the thread in Tom's Hardware?
Yeah man, no problem, check it out. http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/268631-29-water-cooling-radeon-6950#t1928318
Interesting, I probably should have mentioned that I did some (well, many) leakage tests (albeit crude ones) before running it. For example, once I had the fittings connect all the cards in series, I put pieces of tubing at the end, and sent water through, and also blew into the pipes to increase the pressure. After everything checked out, I got it running, but even so it leaked a bit -- not enough to be sustained or caused problems though.
Justread this post. Lots of interesting information. Selling my restored boat in a few days for a little over $40,000 USD. I inherited it and hate boats ;) Really want to throw the money at a bitcoin mining setup. What are your thoughts on this? Hardware tips, setup tips, profit estimates?I am pcproficient, but a bitcoin newb.
$40,000 worth of mining equipment? :0' ' ' *drools... If your about to go that route, you have two basic options:1) Set up some racks in room that you have dedicated to the rigs, air condition the room, and have plenty of fans to circulate the air, Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt8Se3vVNg2) Open-air rigs with your GPUs on raised rails.. with this option you have to be more attentive about things like dust, liquids, and other dangerous foreign objects: they talk more about it here: http://www.overclock.net/intel-general/1023779-when-running-rig-open-air-when.htmlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGIZOO-HYYKeep in mind this quite a large undertaking you are about to embark on. I myself am somewhat of a noob to bitcoin as well but I believe strongly in the idea of a P2P currency, and the potential bitcoin has to change the world. That being said, there is a great possibility of failure associated with the incredibly high rewards if bitcoin does succeed, and you should always weigh these options for yourself before doing anything.Good luck with whatever you decide, post some pictures and/or videos if you do get something together :) Very interested in what comes out of this one.
Computer setup like this would be a present day, super high end valued rig. If you have a good basis and cooling, video cards and power supplies would be the least of your troubles financially.
Sorry forgot to leave link... hahhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTv2hEfeFP4
That is like my *dream* Bitcoin mining rig. Except replace the 5870's with 5970's :D.Four 5970s would consume 1200W in total though (without any overclocking). So the rig would probably need multiple power supplies (to avoid the cost of buying a single big one) which wouldn't fit in the case, and would kind of ruin the aesthetics of it. But very nice looking rig! Water cooling rocks.
Have you thought of undervolting the cards yet? It seems that power consumption is a square of the voltage. I've heard the best way to do this is to underclock the cards down to like 500 mhz, then keep dropping the voltage till something stops working. Jump back up to the previous stable setting, then incrementally increase the mhz again until things break. This way you get the lowest possible voltage running at its highest possible speed.Also, now that it's winter the power/cooling cost aren't as wasteful (turned my 3x5830 miner back on).I'd like to install water blocks so I can run the radiator outside. Heat will be overwhelming here in Florida in a month or two.
Hello again,I'd like to post of picture of a rig I built with help from this blog. Can I sent it to your email Silas and you post it at the bottom, it's not quite as pretty as yours but it is pretty righteous.-Kevin
I'm assuming it undergo to several rigging inspection to be able to make it safer to everyone especially to those who will be using this one. And yes, rigging has become important nowadays to hold up and put things together.
A system unit like this one doesn't have to have a 5th axis rotary table. But I still wonder how a system unit like this one would look like if if has an installation of a rotary table.
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Nice hardware but are you still using this old rig or have you upgraded to an ASIC yet?
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Now that's a decent set-up of your computer! I bet that playing your favorite game in that console will truly be awesome!
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